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1.) In the original written testimony which posted to Harry Harris(Solicitor) in Manchester in 1994 ( of
which I had a copy of way back then from Harry) Milton clearly makes TWO direct references to
'wingman' Dave Roberson! I recently re-checked this in view of my dialogue with Noe Torres.
2.) Harry and I have in recent months, pondered whether Dave Roberson had now got 'cold feet'
about Milton's public revelations because Dave R. is living in either free or low cost accommodation
funded by 'Uncle Sam', in an Air Force Village in St, Antonio, Texas. He also would be relying heavily
on his Air Force pension? Maybe an agent from the NSA has had a word in Roberson's ear!!?? I
cannot be sure about this though?
3.) I think I might forward to you some of my recent emails to Noe Torres explaining/discussing our
puzzlement about the current discrepancies about the 'Mission' date along with the disagreement
between the two pilots. You will see when you read one of the emails, that when I telephoned
Roberson in 2007, he had recall, in GREAT detail, his version of their joint mission of May 20th!!!
Colin, I hope you will bear with me on this one and you can find a moment in your busy life, to look
these over? You will understand the dilemma we are in!
4.) In the relevant MoD 'File', there is a letter from a Manston pilot, which came to the MoD via Harry
Harris. I also have a copy of this letter. As usual, the MoD black out all names in these files before
release to the PRO. Everybody assumes this 'letter' was written by Milton but it is from Dave
Roberson!!
- - -
I would EMPHASIZE that this Order to Shoot Down case by the RAF Fighter Command, has ONLY
come to light because the batch of MoD files released covers the 1980's AND that because there are
some internal memos along with letters from Harry badgering the MoD for info on the case including
the letter from Roberson!!! They are working backwards, date wise, to release the 'selected'
documents for each decade. I say 'selected' because the jolly old MoD saw nothing damaging to them
in the 1988 file, so they sanctioned the release along with loads of other innocuous files!! It has
already been suggested that all the files from the 1950's decade were destroyed years ago! So, I
guess we will NEVER see any damning MoD documents which would reveal that the RAF issued the
'order' for Milton to fire his 24 rockets at the UFO off the east coast of the U.K!!!!!!
Milton is obviously incorrectly, under the impression that our U.K. Government has released ALL the
truth about his'mission' and therefore he is feeling safe & secure in facing the media and speaking
out on high profile platforms!!! It is obvious to me that the U.S. media is also under the same
delusion??
- - - - - -
Hi XXXX
Just to let you know that Harry Harris and myself had independantly wondered if the Mission date
anomally JUST MIGHT be due to Dave Roberson getting belated 'cold feet' about his initial agreement
with Milton about the 20th. May date!!? Back in 1988, Dave Roberson along with his wife had visited
Susan & Harry Harris at their home in Manchester after another Manston Squadron re-union. Harry
does NOT recall any dissention between him and Milton at that time!! Harry says that they were
both 'singing from the same hymn sheet' at that time! Furthermore, in Milton's ORIGINAL written
statement/narrative, states clearly that Roberson was his wingman!
I quote two sections of his narrative where he mentions Roberson by name! ......'' Normally, Dave
Roberson, the other member of the set of two fighters would be the lead ship. I can only suggest that I
was leading due to an 'in place' turn of some sort....'' Later in the narrative, ....''The authentication
was valid and I selected 24 rockets to salvo. I wasn't paying too much attention to Dave, but I clearly
remember him giving a ''Roger'' to all transmissions. I can only suppose he was as busy as I
was?.......'' I have just rechecked my copy of this, obtained from Harry back in 1994!
It occurs to me that since Roberson is living on a USAF pension AND residing in free or low cost Air
Force acommodation in St. Antonio funded by 'Uncle Sam', he fears that he may be threatened by the
NSA, or whoever, for breaking his secrecy oaths??
Hopefully this might clear up the confusion? Whether Dave Roberson will ever admitt that this
conjecture by us is correct, whom knows? Perhaps you could tackle both of them on this Noe?
Regards, David.
- - - - -
Hi again XXX,
Oh dear, I am, understandably, somewhat annoyed by this news from Milton! This change of mind
AGAIN by him, is, I expect, partly due to all the media publicity since October/November last year and
all the referred to documented accounts, except mine, stating the mission date to be 20th May, 57! I
guess Milton does not now wish to upset the applecart on this which maybe could raise doubts in the
minds of all who have read of his account???
In addition to all the recent references to his historical statements, he gave an interview to a Tom
Tulien at 'Virtually Strange' in 1998 which was/is on an issue of ufocasebook. The title of this was
something like: ''Secret Papers Tell How RAF Hunted Aliens''. Going back even further, in 1991, he
gave an interview to a British Newspaper, the Daily Star. Again,his stated mission date was given as
20th May!
The problem is that there was, and still is, (which came to light with my research in Oct. 07, extending
Harry Harris's information) a dispute between Milton and 'wingman', Dave Roberson. Here we have a
conflict of memory by two pilots, no longer young in years, to an event which took place over 50 years
ago. Set against this, it is odd how Milton has such a vivid recall of this VERY memorable incident,
with lots of detail, whereas, Dave Roberson has NO such recall of being ordered to fire HIS rockets at
a UFO EVER!!!!
If you or I had lived through such an event as this, I am damn sure we would not have forgotten
either, such a mind blowing incident in our flying careers!!!
I have an email from Milton ( this email reply to me contains about 9 answers to various questions
from me) including stating his revised mission date to be April 27th 1957. He, as I said to you before,
arrived at this by closely studying his F5 Log and looking at the hours of daylight/darkness, weather
etc, within the actual logged flying time. I presumed he had belatedly realised this because the Log
info for 20th May, did NOT fit into the flight plan for such as mission? It is unfortunate for us all, that
they were not permitted to enter classified details against the Log dates which would have made it
clear to us all, even if the the order to fire detail had been omitted!
I will now pass on to you some of Dave Roberson's recall of their mission on 20th may.
This is of course where we all have a collective problem!!! I spoke with Dave Roberson by telephone
in November 2007, and he clearly states he had never flown with Milton on any mission where they
had been ordered to fire weapons at any target in U.K. airspace!
His specific memory of their joint mission flown on 20th May, was a normal training mission. They were
NOT on that date, on 'QRA 4 min take off Standby', positioned close to the Manston runway. Some
time into their mission, they were ordered to divert to RAF (USAF) Base at Bentwaters, Suffolk, where
another USAF Sabre Squadron from the 406th Wing was temporarily positioned there. Upon arriving,
they were ordered to 'arm up live rockets' to their aircraft as quickly as possible and then once
airborne, they were independently vectored to chase separate UFO's which they attempted to do.
Roberson further recalls being advised by MORE than ONE GCI Site and that MULTIPLE UFO's were
involved and the areas of incursions by the UFO's extended up the east coast of Britain up as far as
Scotland!
He gave chase to several UFO's but could NOT get a 'lock on' to any of these, so therefore HE was
never given any order by RAF Fighter Command to 'fire' upon any UFO!!
There are a couple of points I would like to make here now.
1). The diversion to Bentwaters to 'arm up' their aircraft would have taken at least 45 minutes from
touch down to take off. The armourers would need about 30 minutes to wheel out the rocket crates,
attach to their aircraft, carry out all the safety procedures and complete the paperwork!! (I spent
over 2 years on a Canberra Squadron during the early 1960's in Germany and have witnessed these
procedures).
2). It would have pointless to have 'front line' F86's at Manston standing by for a 4 min. warning of a
enemy strike, waiting to take off, with power connected, awaiting the 'urgent signal to go', with no
means of launching any weapons at the approaching enemy aircraft!! During the 'Cold War' days we
always had our QRA (Quick Reaction Alert) aircraft armed up and ready. Including 4 of our Vulcan 'V'
bombers at several RAF Bases up the east coast of Britain.
3).Having the USAF's 406th Wing at Manston; who were at that time covering the
Southeast/Metropolitan Sector area for the RAF under the 'ROTOR' system around this period in
1957; with unarmed Sabres ready 'to go', would have been unacceptable and pointless! Flying many
miles to another Base to arm up first would be ludicrous!
So, what are the conclusions from all my preamble? There are one or two possibilities?
a) One or both pilots, are wrong about the missions dates for both of these missions?
b) Milton was correct about the 20th, WAS on QRA, armed up and ready to go but genuinely cannot
recall the name of his 'wingman'?
c) It was definitely NOT Dave Roberson who flew with him on the 20th May?
d) Roberson is CORRECT about their joint mission of 20th May and therefore Milton has got the
wrong date for the attempted 'shoot down' mission?
In the final analysis, perhaps it does not matter too much WHICH date it was!! It the important thing is,
that it took place!!!
Sadly, I very much doubt that we will ever get any of the U.K. government departments to fully
acknowledge that it did AND vitally produce documentation to show that they ACTUALLY DID issue
the order to Milton to fire at the UFO! We are principally left with the integrity of a brave pilot of the
United States Air Force who I personally do not doubt one iota!
If you do wish to contact Dave Roberson Noe, his phone number is:(001)210 6739721. He resides at
a Air Force Village retirement home in St. Antonio, Texas. email: droberson@mac.com He had not
been well about 16 months ago and was awaiting a heart operation, I think??
For ease of final recording of Milton's exploits in Wikipedia or in your eventual book, I concede that it
would be regretfully, far simpler to alter the 'Mission' date in my Article back to May 20th from the 27th
April!! Although I accept this 'under protest' as it 'goes against the grain'! The confusion/cockups
have gone on far too long and MUST NOT detract from the reality of the main event!!!! It would be
just fantastic if the 'unknown' wingman flying with Milton on that day, heard of all this publicity, and
made himself known to corroborate Milton's account!!! Perhaps he is deceased, so we will never
know?
Please let me know how you get on next time with Milton and Dave Roberson? Maybe this will the end
of the saga?!! PLEASE SHOW this email to Milton when you go to visit, or forward this to him AND
also Dave Roberson.
Best wishes, David.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: XXX
To: davidacayton@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: http://www.ufodigest.com/news/1108/cayton-print.html
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:54:49 -0500
David,
I spoke briefly to Dr. Milton Torres on Friday night and he stands firm on the May 20th, 1957 date for
his mission to fire upon the large UFO over East Anglia. He told me that he has looked at the Form 5
and confirmed the date. Unfortunately, we did not have time to go into the issue at great length on
Friday, but I will question him further as our phone conversations continue in the next few days. He
was, however, extremely firm that 20 May is correct.
Thanks,
XXXX
which I had a copy of way back then from Harry) Milton clearly makes TWO direct references to
'wingman' Dave Roberson! I recently re-checked this in view of my dialogue with Noe Torres.
2.) Harry and I have in recent months, pondered whether Dave Roberson had now got 'cold feet'
about Milton's public revelations because Dave R. is living in either free or low cost accommodation
funded by 'Uncle Sam', in an Air Force Village in St, Antonio, Texas. He also would be relying heavily
on his Air Force pension? Maybe an agent from the NSA has had a word in Roberson's ear!!?? I
cannot be sure about this though?
3.) I think I might forward to you some of my recent emails to Noe Torres explaining/discussing our
puzzlement about the current discrepancies about the 'Mission' date along with the disagreement
between the two pilots. You will see when you read one of the emails, that when I telephoned
Roberson in 2007, he had recall, in GREAT detail, his version of their joint mission of May 20th!!!
Colin, I hope you will bear with me on this one and you can find a moment in your busy life, to look
these over? You will understand the dilemma we are in!
4.) In the relevant MoD 'File', there is a letter from a Manston pilot, which came to the MoD via Harry
Harris. I also have a copy of this letter. As usual, the MoD black out all names in these files before
release to the PRO. Everybody assumes this 'letter' was written by Milton but it is from Dave
Roberson!!
- - -
I would EMPHASIZE that this Order to Shoot Down case by the RAF Fighter Command, has ONLY
come to light because the batch of MoD files released covers the 1980's AND that because there are
some internal memos along with letters from Harry badgering the MoD for info on the case including
the letter from Roberson!!! They are working backwards, date wise, to release the 'selected'
documents for each decade. I say 'selected' because the jolly old MoD saw nothing damaging to them
in the 1988 file, so they sanctioned the release along with loads of other innocuous files!! It has
already been suggested that all the files from the 1950's decade were destroyed years ago! So, I
guess we will NEVER see any damning MoD documents which would reveal that the RAF issued the
'order' for Milton to fire his 24 rockets at the UFO off the east coast of the U.K!!!!!!
Milton is obviously incorrectly, under the impression that our U.K. Government has released ALL the
truth about his'mission' and therefore he is feeling safe & secure in facing the media and speaking
out on high profile platforms!!! It is obvious to me that the U.S. media is also under the same
delusion??
- - - - - -
Hi XXXX
Just to let you know that Harry Harris and myself had independantly wondered if the Mission date
anomally JUST MIGHT be due to Dave Roberson getting belated 'cold feet' about his initial agreement
with Milton about the 20th. May date!!? Back in 1988, Dave Roberson along with his wife had visited
Susan & Harry Harris at their home in Manchester after another Manston Squadron re-union. Harry
does NOT recall any dissention between him and Milton at that time!! Harry says that they were
both 'singing from the same hymn sheet' at that time! Furthermore, in Milton's ORIGINAL written
statement/narrative, states clearly that Roberson was his wingman!
I quote two sections of his narrative where he mentions Roberson by name! ......'' Normally, Dave
Roberson, the other member of the set of two fighters would be the lead ship. I can only suggest that I
was leading due to an 'in place' turn of some sort....'' Later in the narrative, ....''The authentication
was valid and I selected 24 rockets to salvo. I wasn't paying too much attention to Dave, but I clearly
remember him giving a ''Roger'' to all transmissions. I can only suppose he was as busy as I
was?.......'' I have just rechecked my copy of this, obtained from Harry back in 1994!
It occurs to me that since Roberson is living on a USAF pension AND residing in free or low cost Air
Force acommodation in St. Antonio funded by 'Uncle Sam', he fears that he may be threatened by the
NSA, or whoever, for breaking his secrecy oaths??
Hopefully this might clear up the confusion? Whether Dave Roberson will ever admitt that this
conjecture by us is correct, whom knows? Perhaps you could tackle both of them on this Noe?
Regards, David.
- - - - -
Hi again XXX,
Oh dear, I am, understandably, somewhat annoyed by this news from Milton! This change of mind
AGAIN by him, is, I expect, partly due to all the media publicity since October/November last year and
all the referred to documented accounts, except mine, stating the mission date to be 20th May, 57! I
guess Milton does not now wish to upset the applecart on this which maybe could raise doubts in the
minds of all who have read of his account???
In addition to all the recent references to his historical statements, he gave an interview to a Tom
Tulien at 'Virtually Strange' in 1998 which was/is on an issue of ufocasebook. The title of this was
something like: ''Secret Papers Tell How RAF Hunted Aliens''. Going back even further, in 1991, he
gave an interview to a British Newspaper, the Daily Star. Again,his stated mission date was given as
20th May!
The problem is that there was, and still is, (which came to light with my research in Oct. 07, extending
Harry Harris's information) a dispute between Milton and 'wingman', Dave Roberson. Here we have a
conflict of memory by two pilots, no longer young in years, to an event which took place over 50 years
ago. Set against this, it is odd how Milton has such a vivid recall of this VERY memorable incident,
with lots of detail, whereas, Dave Roberson has NO such recall of being ordered to fire HIS rockets at
a UFO EVER!!!!
If you or I had lived through such an event as this, I am damn sure we would not have forgotten
either, such a mind blowing incident in our flying careers!!!
I have an email from Milton ( this email reply to me contains about 9 answers to various questions
from me) including stating his revised mission date to be April 27th 1957. He, as I said to you before,
arrived at this by closely studying his F5 Log and looking at the hours of daylight/darkness, weather
etc, within the actual logged flying time. I presumed he had belatedly realised this because the Log
info for 20th May, did NOT fit into the flight plan for such as mission? It is unfortunate for us all, that
they were not permitted to enter classified details against the Log dates which would have made it
clear to us all, even if the the order to fire detail had been omitted!
I will now pass on to you some of Dave Roberson's recall of their mission on 20th may.
This is of course where we all have a collective problem!!! I spoke with Dave Roberson by telephone
in November 2007, and he clearly states he had never flown with Milton on any mission where they
had been ordered to fire weapons at any target in U.K. airspace!
His specific memory of their joint mission flown on 20th May, was a normal training mission. They were
NOT on that date, on 'QRA 4 min take off Standby', positioned close to the Manston runway. Some
time into their mission, they were ordered to divert to RAF (USAF) Base at Bentwaters, Suffolk, where
another USAF Sabre Squadron from the 406th Wing was temporarily positioned there. Upon arriving,
they were ordered to 'arm up live rockets' to their aircraft as quickly as possible and then once
airborne, they were independently vectored to chase separate UFO's which they attempted to do.
Roberson further recalls being advised by MORE than ONE GCI Site and that MULTIPLE UFO's were
involved and the areas of incursions by the UFO's extended up the east coast of Britain up as far as
Scotland!
He gave chase to several UFO's but could NOT get a 'lock on' to any of these, so therefore HE was
never given any order by RAF Fighter Command to 'fire' upon any UFO!!
There are a couple of points I would like to make here now.
1). The diversion to Bentwaters to 'arm up' their aircraft would have taken at least 45 minutes from
touch down to take off. The armourers would need about 30 minutes to wheel out the rocket crates,
attach to their aircraft, carry out all the safety procedures and complete the paperwork!! (I spent
over 2 years on a Canberra Squadron during the early 1960's in Germany and have witnessed these
procedures).
2). It would have pointless to have 'front line' F86's at Manston standing by for a 4 min. warning of a
enemy strike, waiting to take off, with power connected, awaiting the 'urgent signal to go', with no
means of launching any weapons at the approaching enemy aircraft!! During the 'Cold War' days we
always had our QRA (Quick Reaction Alert) aircraft armed up and ready. Including 4 of our Vulcan 'V'
bombers at several RAF Bases up the east coast of Britain.
3).Having the USAF's 406th Wing at Manston; who were at that time covering the
Southeast/Metropolitan Sector area for the RAF under the 'ROTOR' system around this period in
1957; with unarmed Sabres ready 'to go', would have been unacceptable and pointless! Flying many
miles to another Base to arm up first would be ludicrous!
So, what are the conclusions from all my preamble? There are one or two possibilities?
a) One or both pilots, are wrong about the missions dates for both of these missions?
b) Milton was correct about the 20th, WAS on QRA, armed up and ready to go but genuinely cannot
recall the name of his 'wingman'?
c) It was definitely NOT Dave Roberson who flew with him on the 20th May?
d) Roberson is CORRECT about their joint mission of 20th May and therefore Milton has got the
wrong date for the attempted 'shoot down' mission?
In the final analysis, perhaps it does not matter too much WHICH date it was!! It the important thing is,
that it took place!!!
Sadly, I very much doubt that we will ever get any of the U.K. government departments to fully
acknowledge that it did AND vitally produce documentation to show that they ACTUALLY DID issue
the order to Milton to fire at the UFO! We are principally left with the integrity of a brave pilot of the
United States Air Force who I personally do not doubt one iota!
If you do wish to contact Dave Roberson Noe, his phone number is:(001)210 6739721. He resides at
a Air Force Village retirement home in St. Antonio, Texas. email: droberson@mac.com He had not
been well about 16 months ago and was awaiting a heart operation, I think??
For ease of final recording of Milton's exploits in Wikipedia or in your eventual book, I concede that it
would be regretfully, far simpler to alter the 'Mission' date in my Article back to May 20th from the 27th
April!! Although I accept this 'under protest' as it 'goes against the grain'! The confusion/cockups
have gone on far too long and MUST NOT detract from the reality of the main event!!!! It would be
just fantastic if the 'unknown' wingman flying with Milton on that day, heard of all this publicity, and
made himself known to corroborate Milton's account!!! Perhaps he is deceased, so we will never
know?
Please let me know how you get on next time with Milton and Dave Roberson? Maybe this will the end
of the saga?!! PLEASE SHOW this email to Milton when you go to visit, or forward this to him AND
also Dave Roberson.
Best wishes, David.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: XXX
To: davidacayton@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: http://www.ufodigest.com/news/1108/cayton-print.html
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 19:54:49 -0500
David,
I spoke briefly to Dr. Milton Torres on Friday night and he stands firm on the May 20th, 1957 date for
his mission to fire upon the large UFO over East Anglia. He told me that he has looked at the Form 5
and confirmed the date. Unfortunately, we did not have time to go into the issue at great length on
Friday, but I will question him further as our phone conversations continue in the next few days. He
was, however, extremely firm that 20 May is correct.
Thanks,
XXXX
Milton Torres Case - Background Notes between David Cayton and others.
